DMCWORLD’s favourite ever interview? 100%. A WORLD EXCLUSIVE with the architect of sound…
Interview by DJ Paulette
The first Trevor Horn record I ever bought was ‘Owner of Lonely Heart’ by a rock band called Yes. He is quoted as saying…“joining Yes was one of those stupid things that you do sometimes, it was one of the two or three times in my life that I’ve done something that I knew was wrong”…however this seemingly inconsequential looking piece of 7’’ vinyl housed a production of epic scope, of dynamic orchestral stabs, of quirky synthesized effects, a blazing bass line and a dynamic rock energy that made my head explode every time I played it and still does now. My record collector’s love affair with Trevor Horn, aka ‘the man who invented the 80s’ started there and then and has continued since then with all his productions for The Pet Shop Boys, The Art of Noise, Malcolm McLaren and The Supreme Team, Grace Jones, ABC, Seal, Robbie Williams, Live Aid, Tina Turner and the output of his record label ZTT. As a young singer / songwriter I wanted my little demos to emulate his productions and in the late 90s as a music industry PR I almost went to work for ZTT, (taking a job offer as Promotions / A&R director for Azuli Records instead). So I’m a Trevor Horn fan with a twenty minute interview slot here in Ibiza. Where and how do I start with clever Trevor Horn CBE? And what could possibly go wrong?
Trevor, you have always been a producer’s producer, your productions are so distinctive that we know it’s one of yours literally from the first note but is creating rich and meticulous production like this becoming a dying art?
I think it is, but for lots of different reasons. One of the reasons is that no-one wants to work on other people’s songs anymore. You know when I work on other people’s songs I’m not in the writing credits anywhere. Most of the good producers now are producers who write their own stuff or rather they do that exclusively. Take somebody like Mark Ronson who I think is very good: I love that ‘Uptown Funk’ record, you know it’s so good. And I liked some of his stuff before too. That’s still slightly different to being an artist with a producer and I don’t know how easy or difficult that is going to be in the future.
In your recent IMS Keynote Interview you made a comment about Kanye West that set Twitter alight?
Oh when I said he’s very angry right? Well he does seem to be very angry for someone so prosperous. I was there when hip hop started out and I always thought that hip hop was basically black rock n roll. Simply put, because I suppose in those days you lived over in England and you thought that every black man in America was playing the blues. But boy, in 1982 they weren’t doing that – it was amazing what I heard in New York. I’d never heard that before y’know people actually physically manipulating records in real time. I knew it was kind of out there and there was a new feeling to it as well. I was feeling Afrika Bambaataa and those sort of guys, when I met them they were so ghetto but they also had a feeling of being a bit more free. They were free in a way they hadn’t been before. They could make music that wasn’t going to get nicked. They were making their music and they felt like they were free to do it and it was so different. I remember walking through the village in New York in 1984. I was wearing a suit because I’d had to go to a wedding and there were two guys breakdancing on the pavement with a big crowd around them – and they were breakdancing to one of my records. It was ‘She’s A Hobo Scratch’ from Malcolm McLaren https://youtu.be/B_mHENbpmHk and I was knocked out. I was with some people and I said ‘…do you know what – I made that record.’ And to see these guys dancing to it really gave me a big thrill. When we were doing that record ‘Buffalo Gals’ I flew The World Famous Supreme Team over to London and I got to talk to them a lot. I‘d never met anyone who spoke like that before. They kept saying things like ‘that’s really bad man’ and I was that dumb I had to say ‘hang on a minute is that bad bad or is that good bad? Just let me know because I’m getting confused’. They filled me in on all kinds, I understood and learned a lot from them and I got a vision of what was to come. They used their own money to make their own radio show, they were very dedicated and I was pleased for them because it came big. We finished ‘Buffalo Gals’ and I remember they more or less went back to America with about £20,000 that they got from Chrysalis on a deal and they phoned me up and said…‘Trevor we’re gonna make the record again, it’s wack. I said ‘what do you mean it’s wack – is that bad or good ?’, and they said ‘yeah man it’s bad but not good and we gotta do it again’ and I said ‘nah nah nah – it’s a punk rock record, it’s Malcolm McLaren’s record and your friends will love it’. And then they said, ‘Trevor give us the drum machine’. And I said –‘ I’m not going to give you the fucking drum machine it cost me two and a half grand’ and they said ‘okay, great working with you man, see you soon.’ And I never saw them again. The music that I then made that used lots of different influences like that was Art of Noise. I suppose we were doing the same thing, physically manipulating our productions.
These are all formative records from my early teenage years. The ground breaking, Frankie Goes To Hollywood and ‘Welcome To The Pleasuredome’ came next ? How did that relationship come about ?
Yes of course. That relationship was pretty straight forward. I heard the demo on the radio a couple of times and I decided to sign them. Of course then it wasn’t just production, I was A&Ring and owned the ZTT label. The one thing I realised when I started working with them was that because they were signed to my label if I couldn’t get it to work I couldn’t walk away from it very easily. Looking back on it there was a point where had they not been on my label I might have walked away from it because they didn’t tell me the truth, they did not tell me that the guitar player couldn’t play. He learned to play but he couldn’t play when we signed them. The guy that had played on all the demos had left but no-one told me. So they didn’t want to lose the deal and in fact it made working with them difficult.
Still, you didn’t drop it and then Frankie Goes to Hollywood were the number 1 band …
For that one year.
Every single record was a number 1?
Yeah I know for that one year and it was great. They were really good songs. The band was quite interesting, two of the guys were overtly gay and the other three were very heterosexual but initially for the first year they got on really well. They would sit with their arms round each other when they were being interviewed and it was all very nice. Then they started to fall out. It happens a lot with bands…
Tell me about Grace Jones : One of your biggest female artists and someone that many rumour to be a nightmare to work with.
Grace is funny. She really is funny. She has a great sense of humour, what can I say? I only ever lost my temper with her once and I realised as I was losing my temper with her that I was one of hundreds of people who had lost their temper with her so I stopped pretty quickly cos I thought it was going to go nowhere. Honestly, I didn’t need to lose my temper with her cause Grace has that great quality and presence that only really great artists have. We played her ‘Slave to The The Rhythm’ – we had changed it completely – we’d slowed it down and she sat down and we’d got a microphone on her and she said “I feel like I’ve been working all day in a field and I’m sitting on a porch and I can feel it’s evening” and I was like ‘Roll the Tape’!… Bruce shout the lines to her !’. Bruce who was the writer was just off mic and he dictated the lyrics line by line to Grace. She sang them three times. When she hit the first chorus ‘Slave To The Rhythm’ the engineer (who was not an emotional person) and myself were dancing for joy in the control room saying ‘thank God, it’s gonna work, it’s gonna work’.”
Creating such a timeless piece of music must be such a buzz?
Well it was when she sang on it. You know when you suddenly can see it? I remember saying to her – ‘I need a climax for the record and I’ve come up with the idea of you on the Letterman show. Because the song doesn’t really have a climax and we need a climax, maybe you can just go – ‘heeeeeeeeere’s Grace – Slave to The Rhythm’ – like you’re on the Johnny Carson show ?’ And she did it in one take. And we put the big horns in like it was a talk show and that gave us the climax. When the arranger had finished with it, me and Steve Lipson laughed so much we cried cos it worked so well. I always love it whenever things really work really well in the studio we just laugh our heads off.
Do you ever get nerves when making music these days?
No. Ever since I started I have always had this policy that as soon as I finish one record I start the next one and I forget about the one I’ve just spent ages on otherwise you really do go mad. If you sit around waiting for things to happen with it, it’s awful so I try and avoid it. They’re like children, you love ‘em you prepare ‘em for the outside world and then there’s a moment when off they go and they’re not yours any more. It’s an interesting thing to think that you were one of four or five people that heard that for the very first time and then millions of people have heard it now which is why it’s got to turn you on in the first place. I mean, most of the good ones, I mean when there were just four or five of us in the control room, we thought they were great. It’s not like we didn’t know that something would happen with them.
And is there any record that you have made that has been so played that you’re sick of it or that you absolutely can’t listen to it?
Well…you know however many times I hear them played on the radio, it’s generally how hard I had to work on them to finish them that stays in my mind. Some songs you work on them so hard that it’s impossible to listen to them objectively again. Seal’s ‘Future Love Paradise’ I used to love it but I spent so long mixing it and it was so troublesome that I can never hear it without thinking about the problems that we had.
Have you spent maybe a third of your life in the SARM studios in London?
At least! No truthfully, I’ve worked all over the world because we rent SARM out but yeah I’ve been in a recording studio for most of my adult life.
So DMCWORLD, When I tell the great Trevor Horn that two of the most incredible experiences of my short recording life were spent recording backing vocals for a band at SARM West, suddenly the tables are turned and he is visibly surprised…
Have you ever been there?
The gleam in Trevor’s eye is almost blinding…‘Yeah I loved it !’ I said ‘It was the first professional studio I had ever been to that had these amazing, enormous recording suites, vast mixing desks, dedicated vocal booths (for the first time I wasn’t squashed into a hastily sound proofed broom cupboard to sing). Then SARM had the kitchen, the chef, the pool table, it actually made it nice for artists to spend time there and hang out.
When was this ?
It was a long time ago – late 80s – 87/88…
You’re from the North of England right? Whereabouts?
Yeah Manchester – and I was recording backing vocals for an up and coming band (who never got signed in the end) but whose producer was Paul Stavely ‘O’ Duffy (Swing Out Sister etc.), managed by John Noel. Anyway this is your interview…
Ah right ! But this is a better job than being a backing vocalist surely ?
It is and in a way it’s a bit the same thing…you’re always behind someone, pushing them forward, making them look and sound better (I say cheekily).
But at least you’re writing…I was song writing for them too…
Anyway I repeat…this is your interview not mine. So moving swiftly along…about the creation process. Are there any particular artists or producers that give you a buzz now?
I don’t listen to producers much. Let me try and answer this seriously. In the 70s the kind of producers that I liked were John Kelly, the guy that produced Kate Bush earlier on, I really liked his work and I liked whoever produced Joni Mitchell and I liked Maurice White’s production, you know Earth, Wind and Fire. I loved those records. These days I see a few people – I really liked Dr. Dre when he first kicked off in the 90s. I thought NWA were – well, I hated the lyrics but I loved the music; it was one of those ironies that something so potent was potentially so negative but it was so good. I’ve since met Dr Dre a couple of times. I worked in the same studio as him and I found he was interesting because he’s not what he seems to be at all. He isn’t from the ghetto, he’s a nice middle classed kid who figured out an angle but he’s good. So I liked him a lot. And I like Mark Ronson, I think he makes good records. And whoever produced Adele – a lot of the Adele stuff is really well done.
Is there any one artist that you would love to work with?
Do you know I am more interested in the material. If somebody’s got good material that’s better for me.
So it doesn’t matter if they’re a total newbie?
If I really like their stuff no. It doesn’t matter. Obviously I’ve got to think that they’re capable of selling some records because somebody’s got to pay for it but that’s what I prefer. I don’t really like making somebody’s twentieth album because people get tired you know. It’s one of those things music, it’s something that gets rediscovered by every generation. So you know if you get old and you start getting tired of it you’ve got no place in it really. You’ve still got to enjoy it. I mean even though a lot of people would have you think otherwise, a lot of records do sound very good these days. There’s a lot less in the way so it’s possible to get things sounding much better.
So do you think – producer, engineer, mixdown, mastering – are those people really necessary – has the process changed for you in any way?
It’s changed less than I thought it would. One way that the process has changed for me is that you can literally do anything if you have to. That can be a buit of a pitfall sometimes.
Too many options … ?
Yeah, you’re always thinking of fixing it rather than starting again. Back in the day you couldn’t fix it if it wasn’t working. Then, if it wasn’t working you’d dump it and start again. Now you start reprogramming it. You know one of the tracks on the Seal record, we’d been working on it for like a year. We spent two days to mix it and then we spent five days working on it back in my house. Then when we’d finished, we went back into the studio to mix it again. I think that people’s expectations of music has changed. Our generation, baby boomers, were reacting against the big band, Bing Crosby Frank Sinatra and all that stuff and really nowadays I hear kids listening and it’s so different for them because they can listen to anything. They can listen back to music from the 30s and 40s and 20s if they want. But they probably won’t because their frame of reference is a lot shorter. Even though it’s available to them, they’re not really digging…? I remember when my daughter who was about 20 at the time and she said that she was going to Glastonbury to see David Bowie ‘but he’s only playing his early stuff’. I said ‘well you know that the early stuff is the only stuff worth listening to because he got a bit wonky after that ‘Let’s Dance’. He’s alright, he’s still brilliant but…’, then she said ‘he’s playing all his hits’ so I was quite surprised that she’d dug through. But you’re right.
So what exactly has brought you here – to Ibiza?
They asked me to come and talk at the IMS and I think I’m doing some shows somewhere, some gigs in the summer.
You’re performing live ?
Yeah we’re doing a bit. We’ve been performing live for the last 6 or 7 years since my wife had an accident. I’ve been doing a bit more of that just because I like doing it.
Do you think you could ever stop performing music / writing music ? Is that possible ?
Oh I’m sure it’s possible but I always feel uncomfortable if I do. I feel very restless if I’m not doing something musical. I’ve always been like that, maybe because it’s second nature? I just like messing round with stuff. I like doing things. At the first gig as The Producers played at 7 years ago – I started the gig off by saying – ‘I know you’ve all paid to come in but this gig’s costing me money, I’m paying for it, so I don’t give a shit if you like it or not. I’m gonna enjoy it. Anyone who doesn’t can sod off now’.
And if there was any one piece of advice that you could give to anybody who wants to be a record producer ?
First – I would endeavour to play music to people a lot so you understand how people react to music. You can’t just play music on your own, you’ve got understand how people listen and understand what people like, what they enjoy and what they don’t and that takes time and patience. Then get out there in front of people playing your music a lot. Don’t just hide yourself away. And you’ve got to be thick skinned but able to listen and take advice. The thing about music is that you make a record and everyone has got an opinion. You know it’s one of the things that everyone’s an expert on. And you have to be able to deal with that because sometimes they’re right and sometimes you are wrong. There was a brief period in the 80s where I was starting to think that I was a legend and I remember somebody saying to me – ‘my voice isn’t loud enough on the record’. And I was like ‘course your voice is loud enough, what do you know?’ And then when I went to cut the record I realised he was dead right. Yeah so you have to listen to people, you can’t close yourself off.
So of all the parts of your body as a producer – which is the most important part ?
Your ears – what else ??? (laughs) Much more than your eyes – let’s face it. Even on those TV shows, however bad somebody looks, the more unattractive they are the better the singer they have got to be. It’s show business, you know what I mean. You know people – what they really want is somebody really good looking who sings really well but they’re quite rare. And sometimes those singers when they start out don’t even look that good looking. You think about George Michael – it’s taken a lot of work – then he became fabulous but it took him a year. Same thing with Sting. Sometimes they don’t know it when they start out.
Favourite artist / least favourite artist that you’ve worked with ?
Oh boy I always try and avoid that question because I know them all and if I start saying about one or the other…it’s like gynecologists don’t talk about their patients and I think producers shouldn’t really either. But you know obviously Seal yes and the Pet Shop Boys are people that I have done more than one record with. But you know, I bumped into Robbie Williams the other day, I hadn’t seen him since I’d made his record ‘Reality Killed The Radio Star’. I was just walking in the studio and he was getting out of the taxi and he was lovely, he said ‘I’ve been listening to our record, it’s a fabulous record.’ And I forgot how big he was – he’s huge! Very big shrek of a fella. I was standing next to him because you know I played with him – he’d got some lifetime achievement award at Earl’s Court and I put a medley of his stuff together and he was getting some serious attitude from whatshisname, Liam Gallagher who was glaring across at him. Robbie was looking back at him and I thought – it’s so funny, I can’t imagine him having a go at Robbie (just posturing like cockerels) – because he’s so little and Robbie’s so huge and Robbie’s such a sweetheart actually when it comes down to it. Liam’s a funny guy. It’s front – it’s loads of front. He does the whole number. He’s done it to me and then he came and apologised later. I met him Liam – in the studio, we bumped into each other on the stairs and he kind of looked at me and I said ‘I’m Trevor Horn, I know who you are and if you ever do a solo album get me to do your solo album because you’ve got a very interesting voice’. And he was like – ‘yeah ok’. Then I bumped into him at a do and I said ‘hey yeah how you doing?’ And he stiffed me. And then a few minutes later he came running after me and he said ‘I’m so sorry, I’d forgotten who you were and I really must apologise’. And I said, ’it’s alright, it’s your shit isn’t it. That’s what you do’. Cos some people are like that. Y’know?
So would you do an album with Liam then ?
Liam Gallagher – YEAH sure, course I would. I mean just the fact that if we were working together there would be so much interest I’d have to do it. But I do actually like his voice. His brother’s a lovely guy, Noel. He’s just a lovely fella – I met him at a do and ended up talking to him for a while.
Do you spend a lot of time at these ‘do’s’ ?
No I mention them because they’re the only time I’m allowed out in the outside world. And this is where I bump into people in the music business.
Lifetime Achievement awards for Trevor Horn – how do you take those?
I’ve had a few of them. I always think they’re a bit jinxy. You know if someone starts to make a big fuss of you and call you journalist of the year it’s great and you enjoy but there’s always a little bit of edge to it, always a little bit of fall out that you have to deal with. It makes people look at you funny. Then you get the side that’s a bit jealous. You know what religious people say that the evil eye is? When people look at you with jealousy? It’s that their heart shouts out a cry to God – why does this person have so much and I have so little? And if somebody cries that out they open the books and they check you out. So you don’t want to disturb anybody or make trouble.
Have you ever got locked into the belief that you are the greatest?
You can’t, it’s fatal. No, you can’t.
So for the rest of your stay in Ibiza what do you plan to do – where do you plan to go ?
I’ve been to Ibiza before and I come here willingly. I don’t go drinking lager down the sea front but I do like it here.
Where are your favourite spots ?
There’s a couple of places I love but I’m terrible with names. We rented a place, a villa over the other side of the island. Slightly south and straight across. I’ve been here three times and the last time I was here I came to work with Seal and I set up the studio in Pikes for a while for a couple of weeks. I took a suite of rooms and I brought the equipment over but Seal fell down the stairs and bashed his head so he couldn’t do it so I had to go home empty handed. But I do like this place and the beaches are fantastic.
Which restaurants?
There’s a fish restaurant on a beach somewhere that I loved but we were in a villa and it came with a cook. Then we stayed in a nice hotel that has a big spa somewhere. I just love the sunsets here – the sunsets are incredible. I can imagine people coming here from somewhere like Manchester and they don’t want to go back …
Me! – You got me. No I don’t. And so, I’ve been watching and ignoring the wind-up nod from Tony Tambourine (Listen Up Head of PR) for just under 5 minutes but since I am starting to feel his evil eye burning a hole into the back of my head, I thank Trevor warmly, get my two Spanish kisses, ask someone to take our photo, nearly fall off my chair and into Trevor’s lap in the process, then trip over my handbag when I stand up thus making the least dramatic exit possible – and all whilst still recording the drama. That was me. Clattering out of the Hard Rock Hotel like a boss. Not star struck at all. I heart Trevor Horn. He’s da man.
